Author Topic: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!  (Read 12820 times)

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Offline steviebwoy78

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Sorry, I know this has been posted about already, but I feel we need a topic for this on it's own.

The SOCIABLE SOCCER Kickstarter is LIVE!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/towerstudios/sociable-soccer

Offline steviebwoy78

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #1 on: 12 November 2015, 14:24:49 »
I just backed at Early Access level  :)


Offline higgipoker

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #3 on: 12 November 2015, 15:55:33 »
No Mac or Linux :(
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Offline Rock and Roll

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #4 on: 12 November 2015, 16:05:33 »
At times like these...I need to get a credit card :D

Very very interesting. Hope he'll make it.
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Offline higgipoker

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #5 on: 12 November 2015, 16:10:24 »
If they have their wits about them, he and Dino Dini should get together and "engineer" some heat between each other.

Both Kick Off and Sensible Soccer releasing "spiritual sequels" at the same time... lots of potential for fireworks to generate interest :D
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Offline Playaveli

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #6 on: 12 November 2015, 16:58:48 »
Quote
Why go with Kickstarter then? Haven't you tried to get a Sensible Soccer game off the ground?

Jon Hare: Sensible Soccer is owned by Codemasters and it has been since 1999.

Yeah, I know. Did you not have a chat with them about doing a new one?

Jon Hare: I've had chats with them, but they've never offered me reasonable licensing conditions. I've been talking to them for 10 years about it. It's just not worth my while.

You saw what happened with Cannon Fodder on PC. I offered to do a Cannon Fodder before that deal was done, and they said they didn't want to do the deal with me because they could get a much better licensing deal with another developer and they made that instead.

When you say a much better deal, are we dancing around the fact they went for the cheap option?

Jon Hare: Yep. I wanted a decent percentage because, why not? And because I could do a better job. They said they could get a better deal with another company. Well, you saw what they did.
When you saw that game, how did it make you feel?

Jon Hare: I was glad I had nothing to do with it. That's it.

My point is, Codemasters is entitled to do what they like with Sensible Soccer. It's their license now. I understand why people associate me with it, because I designed it. But I can't control that license any more. And I've not been able to for 16 years. So, I think now is the time to say, okay, I made Microprose Soccer. That was the best football game on Commodore 64. I made Sensible Soccer and Sensible World of Soccer. They were the best football games on Amiga certainly, Atari ST maybe, Mega Drive for a time. It's time to do it again with a digital game. Just set up a new franchise and go from scratch.

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Offline Rock and Roll

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #7 on: 12 November 2015, 17:04:25 »
Best part of that interview is that he stated he wants to do a franchise. So make sure something works and then build from there. Sounds Sensible...uhh...Socialble :)
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Offline Playaveli

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #8 on: 12 November 2015, 17:40:25 »
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Although Sensible Soccer is a great game, and a lot of people say, we just want SWOS totally converted to now, which a lot of the old SWOS fans will say, the point is, that's 20 years old and it won't be as good as you think it will be. There are things that don't work, because we didn't design it to work for modern technologies and modern online systems. So although it sounds nice in theory, it won't work.

Won't work? I disagree, and I am very disappointed.

Reason: Look at what Zlatko did to PC SWOS, without ANY source code...
Come on, what could be done with the Amiga source code?

Same old story, again and again...  :-\

Quote
The biggest challenge for us is getting the online multiplayer to work fast enough. That's going to take up most of our time once we've got the game playing well on one machine, which I would suggest we're 50 per cent of the way there with that. Getting the online multiplayer to work is the biggest challenge for this, and it's the biggest difference to something like Sensible Soccer, or SWOS, which has never been able to offer that.

No comment!  :-X
« Last Edit: 12 November 2015, 17:44:01 by Playaveli »

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Offline lemonheadiv

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #9 on: 12 November 2015, 18:51:47 »
As hardcore fans and experienced players of the original game I think we would be more than happy with an Amiga SWOS for modern machines with in-built online capability (hopefully as good as the simple but effective Kaillera) and a few optional tweaks.
I'd be fine with the Amiga graphics which in my opinion could just benefit from more colors and a larger visiblie portion of the pitch thanks to an hd-like resolution.

Anyway, as we said in another thread, it's clear that Jon wants to do something different and new although reminiscent of Sensible Soccer/SWOS, which is totally fine...and who knows, they could do a very good job on this one (remember that what has been shown it's "early prototype footage")...it's just that it's not what most of us would ask for, or so I think.

Some quotes from the last Eurogamer interview are indeed disappointing, to say the least, as Playaveli just said.

Quote
Although Sensible Soccer is a great game, and a lot of people say, we just want SWOS totally converted to now, which a lot of the old SWOS fans will say, the point is, that's 20 years old and it won't be as good as you think it will be. There are things that don't work, because we didn't design it to work for modern technologies and modern online systems. So although it sounds nice in theory, it won't work.

The game is 20 years old and is as good and even better than we thought it would be. The online community gave it a whole new dimension as players from all over Europe had the chance to refine their skills and develop various playing styles thus improving the level of competition and highlighting the outstanding qualities of this game.

Quote
The biggest challenge for us is getting the online multiplayer to work fast enough. That's going to take up most of our time once we've got the game playing well on one machine, which I would suggest we're 50 per cent of the way there with that. Getting the online multiplayer to work is the biggest challenge for this, and it's the biggest difference to something like Sensible Soccer, or SWOS, which has never been able to offer that.

Ehm...well, that was before Kaillera. :)

Offline barnettgs

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #10 on: 12 November 2015, 20:32:25 »
To be honest, while Amiga SWOS is a great game, it is getting very long in the tooth.

The technologies (including CPU/GPU designs) have changed a lot over the past 20 years and like many other new retro games in development including Dino's kick-off so it's very obvious that a new 'SWOS' has to be created from ground up, no doubt about that.  Let alone making it playable in 3 platforms - PC, PS4 and Xbox One.

I have to say that given a very short development time, the team seemed to be very talented and doing very well with this game.  I don't know what were you expecting from this new game as you seemed to be willing to put it down?  I thought it looked great especially the gameplay at the early stage. 

From Jon's interview, you can see that Xbox 360 version Sensible Soccer 2006 was a rushed product and that Codemaster wasn't giving him any chance to fix the bugs.  Still, Jon is now on his own with his team to do this game in freedom and does what he pleases.  After all, he created sensible soccer and who are we argue with? :)
« Last Edit: 13 November 2015, 21:55:40 by barnettgs »

Offline lemonheadiv

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #11 on: 12 November 2015, 22:09:59 »
To be honest, while Amiga SWOS is a great game, it is getting very long in the tooth.

The technologies (including CPU/GPU designs) have changed a lot over the past 20 years and like many other new retro games in development including Dino's kick-off so it's very obvious that a new 'SWOS' has to be created from ground up, no doubt about that.  Let alone making it playable in 3 platforms - PC, PS4 and Xbox One.

I disagree, I don't find it outdated at all.
Also, the advancements in technologies have nothing to do with the possibility of taking the original source code and build a proper (that is with the same Amiga gameplay) remake on it. The 20th Anniversary Edition of Another World is a good example of what I would do with SWOS: http://store.steampowered.com/app/233550/
The problem of course is that Codemasters have the license and they're just sitting on it, having no interest in doing anything with it.

So this would leave Jon with no other option than reinventing the wheel from scratch. Anyway it's clear that his idea is to create a brand new game rather than a new version of SWOS, which is fine. It doesn't mean that he will fail but sure it will be tough for him and his team to match the quality of Amiga SWOS. A lot will also depend on post launch support which hopefully won't be Codemasters-like (remember what happened with Sensible Soccer 2006 which had some potential but was abandoned after that rushed release).
I think I can understand Jon's point of view and his will to move on and it's not my intention to put down his new effort. As I wrote, we have to keep in mind that we've just seen an early prototype. I personally would have preferred a 2d look but then again, it's too early to judge and the graphics are probably more of a placeholder.


Offline higgipoker

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #12 on: 13 November 2015, 09:25:33 »

I disagree, I don't find it outdated at all.
Also, the advancements in technologies have nothing to do with the possibility of taking the original source code and build a proper (that is with the same Amiga gameplay) remake on it...

I'm with you on this... even the graphics and sound stand up today as "retro style" pixel art. People love that shit. Imagine if 80% of the development effort was going into online play and improvements to career mode (realistic activity in the transfer market etc.)

As a developer myself, the only issue I can think of regarding his comment about "CPU/GPU designs" is that it would be impossible to do a direct port of the Amiga code. For example, features like the aftertouch are almost certainly implemented on a frame basis (eg joystick polled every frame,  for 10 frames after a shot), within a frame based game loop.

This was fine in a "gaming console" like the Amiga where you were guaranteed the same frame time on every single Amiga, but this method just would not hold up today. This, I strongly suspect, is the reason behind the differences in gameplay/ball physics on the different versions. It's not possible to simply port the Amiga source code to a new platform and get the same results.

Don't get me wrong, Hare has earned our support, but this is a completely new game he's making and it will look and feel nothing like Sensible Soccer. Those holding out for a "new SWOS" will be disappointed.

Let's hope they are savy enough to realize the importance of making the data easily editable so that the community can update the game with real teams/players/competitions.
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Offline steviebwoy78

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #13 on: 13 November 2015, 11:44:26 »
I think we have to remember that the footage shown in the video is just alpha gameplay. There's another 12 months of development to unfold before it's ready.

The main concern I have with the game is the whole emphasis on multiplayer that really comes across on the KS page and Jon's video. It's all about avatars, clans and online characters. I fear that Jon may have missed the point here. Yes, it's great to have this *in addition* to single player, but SWOS was predominantly about the single player experience, and it's that that people remember fondly from SWOS. It was about taking a lowly team and building them up to be a European giant.

None of this comes across in the KS campaign currently. Jon made it pretty clear in the Eurogamer interview that single player and the offline trophies are a big part of this game, but calling it "Sociable Soccer" and focusing the KS page on avatars and clans just makes it sound (as someone said on the KS comments) like a Facebook game. This is the wrong message imho and I fear, that even if Jon updates the KS page, he may have already missed out on a huge chunk of investment and publicity by focusing on the wrong elements of what made previous titles so good.

Just my thoughts and, of course, I wish Jon and his team all the luck in the world. This is just the start of what could be an amazing new franchise. Just.. maybe think about changing the name hey Jon?
« Last Edit: 13 November 2015, 11:46:11 by steviebwoy78 »

Offline steviebwoy78

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Re: Sociable Soccer - Jon Hare's new football game is on KICKSTARTER!
« Reply #14 on: 13 November 2015, 12:36:49 »
From Twitter:

"We'll be updating our @kickstarter page today with more info about single player and some delicious development documents!"

Source:
https://twitter.com/Sociable_Soccer/status/665130742771527680