Author Topic: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted  (Read 30885 times)

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Offline petarku

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #45 on: 14 May 2018, 12:14:46 »

Remaking the entire art for the game is more expensive than updating the player and team database. I'm not even talking about the official FIFPro license, just update them using fake names (and about this, read my PS below).

There was some weird stuff in there, I'm not sure if it's just promo artwork, mockups, or previous versions of the game, but there are images of the game with more shadow effects, different crowd sprites and additional elements not present in the released build.

Still reading that 27 page thread. EDIT: scratch that, I can't seem to get past page 1, I'm not entirely sure how wayback machine works.

Jon not wanting to deal with Codemasters might be right. I don't want to burn bridges so I'm gonna be politically correct and say they've made some debatable commercial decisions in the last 15 years.

PS: curiously, I've read some legal advice about the whole real names vs fake names and there's kind of a loophole there if you launch a game with fake names and then put out free opt-in DLC with the real names - it needs to be free and it can't be part of an official auto-update patch, it needs to be a package that a costumer clicks to download.
Of course, as with many other things, you might be legal but still get sued and have to defend yourself, hence even the threat of being sued is enough to dissuade people from doing that sort of stuff as it costs tons of money in legal fees. And at the end of the day it just depends on how "big" you are, there are plenty of football related games on mobile and PC using real names, but they're small scale and no one will bother suing them.


I think there is undoubtedly interest, but it's gonna be a process... the first barrier is the license, 30k is a lot of money and then you need to see how you can leverage the source code into developing essentially a new game using some of it's components.

The devplan would be critical in a project like this, people would have to agree with a features list set in stone and commit to doing that without constant disagreements and feature creep burning development time. I say this because SWOS is such an unique taste, even in this forum there are people that think releasing the same 20 year game with just updated fake names would be enough, while others (like myself) think you need to keep the core gameplay and redo everything else around it to modern specifications, for example.

Also, you can't get crowdfunding for this without some of the original devs involved or a prototype/alpha demo that just blows people away, gamers aren't going to trust "random guy X" just because he licensed the IP. There was already enough distrust about Sociable and that even has Jon Hare as the face of the project.

I agree that having the developers team  that is passionate to take the source code and work on game is much bigger problem then to collect 30k to get the licence (just to clear up , i dont think 30k is little).
I dont think real names licence is the problem. Look how PES is doing it even on closer system then PC.
Community update would sort it out ..

this community can help a lot in advertising quality assurance and to attract the people to the remake. Look just on sociable soccer steam forums how many people want exactly swos remake with career and everything else that make this game special.  also if missing leagues would be added it could be really smart advertised as really world of soccer

you perfectly identified issue about product management in potential remake ...
As always in retro revival , you have percent of people that want exactly the same thing just on new machines (or just minimal changes).  if you want bigger adoption (more money) you need better graphics to attract people.
Someone need to be responsible to make those decisions and how you make nice bridge between having retro feeling and better graphic.




Offline HairFU

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #46 on: 14 May 2018, 12:24:44 »
As an Idea for the game. Just make an option to switch between classic menu looking (and classic setting up and so on) and modern game menu. So everyone gets what he likes the most.

Offline Masakari

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #47 on: 14 May 2018, 13:53:37 »
you perfectly identified issue about product management in potential remake ...
As always in retro revival , you have percent of people that want exactly the same thing just on new machines (or just minimal changes).  if you want bigger adoption (more money) you need better graphics to attract people.
Someone need to be responsible to make those decisions and how you make nice bridge between having retro feeling and better graphic.
There should be a balance and respect / reverence for the original material, but like you correctly pointed out, if you want commercial success you need updated specs in many areas, including graphics. It really makes me feel old (I'm 38) when I think that kids entering college were born in 2000 (!!!) and probably have no idea what an Amiga or Sensi is. They were 6yo when Sensi 2006 came out and 7yo when the XBLA version was released, and both of those flopped. A big chunk of the market grew up on FIFA and PES, not Kickoff and Sensi.

That's the uphill battle this franchise is fighting and one of my biggest worries. It's also the first thing execs and investors will think of. It's been so long now that with each passing year a successful SWOS revival gets more and more unlikely. It's disappearing from culture, both gamer and general, with each new generation.

It's not a lost cause but you need to appeal to the remaining hardcore fanbase, nostalgic gamers that don't play anymore, and also expose it to lots of new people that didn't grow up with 90s interfaces and stuff like that - hence why IMO the entire game aside from the gameplay needs to be redesigned.

@HairFU: it's an unnecessary burden for a dev team to have to develop and maintain 2 different UI sets, specially when you would have additional features (for example in Career) that weren't present in the original game. It's not doable. You should make a new UI that invokes and is inspired by SWOS, of course, I'm not talking about turning it into Football Manager spreadsheets.

There's plenty of interesting articles and studies out there regarding UX design, like The Aesthetic-Usability Effect and the Mass Effect: Massive Interface Fail series. Fascinating insight into best practices of interface design.
« Last Edit: 14 May 2018, 13:59:46 by Masakari »

Offline lemonheadiv

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #48 on: 14 May 2018, 16:10:35 »
If it is about the 30k, I can Imagine that it could be possible to do it by crowdfunding. But as Masakari allready mentioned it would not make any sence to do it If there is no team behind the project that can work with the source code.

Are we sure that 30k = licence + source code? We have no use for the licence alone.

Knowing Codemasters, I can’t help but thinking of this scenario: two well known developers ask for the SWOS licence. One (let's say LizardCube, who just made a Wonder Boy: The Dragon's Trap remake) wants to use the source code to make a proper remake of SWOS. The other (let's say Zynga) just needs the licence to make a crappy mobile game. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I think I know what Codemasters would be keen on producing…

Anyway, we could try to assemble a dev team in order to contact Codemasters and see if we can reach an agreement. We need some credentials though, a vertical slice, or members of Sensible Software working with us (I'll get back to that later).
Let's assume there’s a way to get the source code, or that, in case we’re not allowed to use it, we can reverse engineer it and create our new soccer game, the first question we’d need to ask ourselves is: who are we working for? In other words, what is our target audience?

If you ask me, the answer is a SWOS made by the fans, for the fans. And by “fans” I mean longtime players like our community members, people who have invested enough time in the game to understand the depth and the unquestionable value of its gameplay.
If you do this then you don’t even need to worry about the UI (it may look outdated but it still serves its purpose well) or updated rosters (a non-problem, since users can update all the data they want). You just have to do justice to a timeless classic and bring it to run natively on modern systems.

With a little more effort, XBLA SWOS could have succeded in doing this. Its main problem was that it was just a (poorly marketed) lazy port with broken netplay, and zero post-launch support. Having the old roster with fake names didn’t hurt the game nearly as much as this.
Sure, the dev team would have needed to modify, or better yet, rewrite the source code to get around some of its limitations. As it stands, ball physics are altered as you change resolution, and the game can’t run at the same speed at different refresh rates. And, of course, no netplay. :)
I guess they weren’t given the time (or the money, or both) to choose that kind of approach, so they focused on cosmetic changes to the pitches/stadiums instead. At least they supported the 16:9 ratio, so we were able to see more of the pitch, but that’s the only “worthy” improvement that comes to my mind right now.
Oh, let’s not forget that: “SWOS is the first Xbox Live Arcade game to feature online ads. Massive Inc (owned by Microsoft) has supplied the code to enable banner ads.”

Of course you can also try to cater to the younger audiences and present the classic SWOS gameplay with a “modern” UI and new, flashy retro visuals. I just don’t know what their reaction will be once they get out of the menus and start playing. I can think of “OMG, just one button?”, and “Do I actually need to spend time to get good at this thing?”. Or maybe they will appreciate the depth of the gameplay, who knows.
I’m just saying the UI isn’t the first thing I’d bother with if I had the source code. First, I'd try to get rid of the code’s limitations and port it to modern systems, for the people who have been playing the game online for all these years.
Then, you can easily build on that first re-release, revamp the UI, and even start working on the gameplay. Maybe add some modifiers at first, like:
- injuries: random (original gameplay) or depending on the "predisposition for injuries" skill (remixed gameplay)
- stamina: endless (original gameplay) or determined by the "fitness" skill (remixed gameplay)

Codemasters just don’t care, I think we all get this. But I also think Jon Hare doesn’t care that much either.
Sociable was born to target a wider audience thus potentially making some good money (I understand that money is important, don’t get me wrong). Jon also said they want to create a new series of sports game, so I don’t know if they will polish the soccer game first or start working on a new sport...
I assume a proper modern version of SWOS was not believed to be as profitable (compare the number of people playing SWOS competitively with the number of casual gamers playing on their smartphone...). Otherwise Jon may have asked for much less money on kickstarter, in order to deliver a proper SWOS remake.
And I can understand some distrust around Sociable. Asking for 300k, which is quite a big sum in comparison to other kickstarter projects, and then going on to develop the game with no crowdfunding at all wasn’t exactly the best move to begin with. Also, it didn't help that in 4 months there were no updates to a game that was in little more than alpha state when it was released in early access.

Back to Jon Hare and Sensible Software members, why don’t we ever mention Chris Chapman who was the lead programmer and certainly knows more about the code than Jon? If we want to present ourselves in a credible manner to Codemasters it could be crucial to get him and Stoo Cambridge, as well as Jon Hare, on board.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 03:44:26 by lemonheadiv »

Offline petarku

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #49 on: 14 May 2018, 16:40:54 »
If it is about the 30k, I can Imagine that it could be possible to do it by crowdfunding. But as Masakari allready mentioned it would not make any sence to do it If there is no team behind the project that can work with the source code.

Are we sure that 30k = licence + source code? We have no use for the license alone.

Knowing Codemasters, I can’t help but thinking of this scenario: two well known developers ask for the SWOS license. One (let's day LizardCube, who just made a Wonder Boy: The Dragon's Trap remake) wants to use the source code to make a proper remake of SWOS. The other (let's say Zynga) just needs the license to make a crappy mobile game. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I think I know what Codemasters would be keen on producing…

Anyway, we could try to assemble a dev team in order to contact Codemasters and see if we can reach an agreement. We need some credentials though, a vertical slice, or members of Sensible Software working with us (I'll get back to that later).
Let's assume there’s a way to get the source code, or that, in case we’re not allowed to use it, we can reverse engineer it and create our new soccer game, the first question we’d need to ask ourselves is: who are we working for? In other words, what is our target audience?

If you ask me, the answer is a SWOS made by the fans, for the fans. And by “fans” I mean longtime players like our community members, people who have invested enough time in the game to understand the depth and the unquestionable value of its gameplay.
If you do this then you don’t even need to worry about the UI (it may look outdated but it still serves its purpose well) or updated rosters (a non-problem, since users can update all the data they want). You just have to do justice to a timeless classic and bring it to run natively on modern systems.

With a little more effort, XBLA SWOS could have succeded in doing this. Its main problem was that it was just a (poorly marketed) lazy port with broken netplay, and zero post-launch support. Having the old roster with fake names didn’t hurt the game nearly as much as this.
Sure, the dev team would have needed to modify, or better yet, rewrite the source code to get around some of its limitations. As it stands, ball physics are altered as you change resolution, and the game can’t run at the same speed at different refresh rates. And, of course, no netplay. :)
I guess they weren’t given the time (or the money, or both) to choose that kind of approach, so they focused on cosmetic changes to the pitches/stadiums instead. At least they supported the 16:9 ratio, so we were able to see more of the pitch, but that’s the only “worthy” improvement that comes to my mind right now.
Oh, let’s not forget that: “SWOS is the first Xbox Live Arcade game to feature online ads. Massive Inc (owned by Microsoft) has supplied the code to enable banner ads.”

Of course you can also try to cater to the younger audiences and present the classic SWOS gameplay with a “modern” UI and new, flashy retro visuals. I just don’t know what their reaction will be once they get out of the menus and start playing. I can think of “OMG, just one button?”, and “Do I actually need to spend time to get good at this thing?”. Or maybe they will appreciate the depth of the gameplay, who knows.
I’m just saying the UI isn’t the first thing I’d bother with if I had the source code. First, I'd try to get rid of the code’s limitations and port it to modern systems, for the people who have been playing the game competitively for all these years.
Then, you can easily build on that first re-release, revamp the UI, and even start working on the gameplay. Maybe add some modifiers at first, like:
- injuries: random (original gameplay) or depending on the "predisposition for injuries" skill (remixed gameplay)
- stamina: endless (original gameplay) or determined by the "fitness" skill (remixed gameplay)

Codemasters just don’t care, I think we all get this. But I also think Jon Hare doesn’t care that much either.
Sociable was born to target a wider audience thus potentially making some good money (I understand that money is important, don’t get me wrong). Jon also said they want to create a new series of sports game, so I don’t know if they will polish the soccer game first or start working on a new sport...
I assume a proper modern version of SWOS was not believed to be as profitable (compare the number of people playing SWOS competitively with the number of casual gamers playing on their smartphone...). Otherwise Jon may have asked for much less money on kickstarter, in order to deliver a proper SWOS remake.
And I can understand some distrust around Sociable. Asking for 300k, which is quite a big sum in comparison to other kickstarter projects, and then going on to develop the game with no crowdfunding at all wasn’t exactly the best move to begin with. Also, it didn't help that in 4 months there were no updates to a game that was in little more than alpha state when it was released in early access.

Back to Jon Hare and Sensible Software members, why don’t we ever mention Chris Chapman who was the lead programmer and certainly knows more about the code than Jon? If we want to present ourselves in a credible manner to Codemasters it could be crucial to get him and Stoo Cambridge, as well as Jon Hare, on board.

do we have some indication about source code for swos xbla ? is it just wrapper around amiga code with checks for achievements and network play (faulty one) as they didnt change to much there?
although goalkeepers are acting differently then on amiga and you curling the shots is different , so i am not sure what and how they tweaked original code ,
I would be surprised if xbla devs didnt treat gameplay as black box and just wrap some kind of emulator around it. If someone was planning to contact original xbla developers would be interesting to get more details about it.


if it is same old code from amiga , it could be hard to get dev team that have knowledge in old programming language to understand and improve development as i understand everyone here agree that we shouldnt mess with the core mechanics of the swos ..

so if you have old code that very few new devs understand , and you want to go on multi platforms (to make money ) it is very hard thing to do with swos.
i suspect this might be the one of the reason why John didnt want to take the licence , but wanted to start from scratch.
they are unity engine in sociable soccer which is very easy to port to any of the platforms .so more platforms more adoption..  plus you have a lot of new devs that are familiar with unity engine ...
 


sociable soccer situation is very strange - for example John Hare didnt tweet or give any update about that game for months.  Team expanded , moved to new premises and they did zero releases on the game which is in early access and should be updated on regular basics as that is the purpose of early access. 

Offline Masakari

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #50 on: 14 May 2018, 16:54:43 »
We can only get the proper fee from Codies themselves, and yes, no idea if 30k is just the licence or licence+code.

I disagree with many of the assessments regarding a new game. If you want to port to modern systems you kind of already have that on Gog.com, SWOS 96/97 has always been on sale there (yes, I know its DOSbox, not "updated"). If you want to relaunch SWOS as a franchise you need to be an actual modern game, so the old audience will still enjoy the classic gameplay and improvements, and a new audience won't feel like they're playing 20 year old software with silly limitations.
Why would anyone want Windows 10, or 11, or 12, to look exactly like Windows 3.11? The UI has evolved, it's similar and you can clearly tell it's still Windows, but the user experience is better and it looks sexier to boot.

I also think any approach to this would require a vertical slice, otherwise it's just words.

As of 2016:
+ Chris Chapman has been out of the industry for 15 years and is working for a web visualization company;
+ Stoo Cambridge did the updated art on the XBLA version, and also worked on Alien Hominid, Actua Soccer 2006, Family Guy Stewie's Arsenal, Yamaha Supercross and 1000 Tiny Claws. He was working on "Blobbit", an old school game, the site and FB page for that game seem static or abandoned;
+ Jon Hare is, of course, working on Sociable and since any proper SWOS revival would be direct competition, I doubt he can or will help.

Good questions petarku, regarding the code and even the XBLA version. I think only talking with someone from Codemasters and the original team (like Chris Chapman) will provide clarification.


Offline Playaveli

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #51 on: 14 May 2018, 19:15:55 »
Fun fact:
Codemasters tried to use fan updates for XBLA SWOS, but were incapable to get career mode running. Embarrassing... (needless to say, we offered help to fix that but were ignored, ofc!)

PS: I think after 4 years Jon wouldn't have a problem that I make this public!
« Last Edit: 14 May 2018, 19:56:05 by Playaveli »

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Offline HairFU

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #52 on: 14 May 2018, 21:59:00 »
@Masakari:

Can you make a mock-up, what you mean by using modern menu and set up structure that fits into SWOS look and feel? At the moment I have something in mind, wich did not really fits to SWOS.
Let me say this. I am really happy with SWOS 96/97 and I really  have no problems to play it on old hardware or emulator for my whole life. It just would be great to have SWOS with new features, like unlimited seasons in career mode, adapt championsleague and europe league system of these days, add new competition like confederations cup and so, update DIY tournament mode with more teams and bigger groups possible and so on. So just do some add ons and basic features added to the old game.

I can accept a new menu structure, but for me it should be 100% respect the look and feel of the old style. Even if the gameplay in a SWOS match is feeling like the old version, it could prevent me from enjoying it 100% if the feeling of the rest of the games don't look and feel the same like old versions. Don't get me wrong, I really understand that it could be needed (but maybe not) to make changes to the game if you try to get new/younger people to get in touch with this game. But is it really what we want? For me a new SWOS Version is mostly about new cool featured but not about changing to a different look and feel to maybe appeal another audience that never was in touch with oldschool/retro football games before (wich will be very hard for a major audience as a lot of people that never played SWOS or Sensible Soccer and trying it out for first time these days are confused about the gameplay and have feelings about it is a bad game, because you play with one button or it is to hard to master - I think SWOS is mostly interessting for players that like old games and these people are more used to oldschool interfaces).

So it would be really nice to see some concept arts what you have in mind. In that way I can understand better, what do you mean by modern interface into SWOS. I will 100% support a new version of SWOS, but only if I have the feeling that it preserve 100% of the look and feel of the old versions in any way. Xbox 360 version was very good in this look and feel thing.
« Last Edit: 14 May 2018, 22:29:24 by HairFU »

Offline Masakari

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #53 on: 15 May 2018, 00:12:58 »
Fun fact:
Codemasters tried to use fan updates for XBLA SWOS, but were incapable to get career mode running. Embarrassing... (needless to say, we offered help to fix that but were ignored, ofc!)
I should be surprised by that, but having worked in the industry for a few years I'm really not. Like I mentioned before I'm going to refrain from public trash talking about these types of situations because I don't want to have future problems. I've had a run in with EA early in my career, and it wasn't a pleasant experience.

PS: I think after 4 years Jon wouldn't have a problem that I make this public!
Interesting... so judging from those emails and the dates, eventually the idea to approach Codies and use SWOS was abandoned for doing Sociable. And again judging from both the tone of those emails and your own comments here, it seems it was because Codemasters are a hassle to deal with.

@Masakari:

Can you make a mock-up, what you mean by using modern menu and set up structure that fits into SWOS look and feel? At the moment I have something in mind, wich did not really fits to SWOS.
Let me say this. I am really happy with SWOS 96/97 and I really  have no problems to play it on old hardware or emulator for my whole life. It just would be great to have SWOS with new features, like unlimited seasons in career mode, adapt championsleague and europe league system of these days, add new competition like confederations cup and so, update DIY tournament mode with more teams and bigger groups possible and so on. So just do some add ons and basic features added to the old game.

I can accept a new menu structure, but for me it should be 100% respect the look and feel of the old style. Even if the gameplay in a SWOS match is feeling like the old version, it could prevent me from enjoying it 100% if the feeling of the rest of the games don't look and feel the same like old versions. Don't get me wrong, I really understand that it could be needed (but maybe not) to make changes to the game if you try to get new/younger people to get in touch with this game. But is it really what we want? For me a new SWOS Version is mostly about new cool featured but not about changing to a different look and feel to maybe appeal another audience that never was in touch with oldschool/retro football games before (wich will be very hard for a major audience as a lot of people that never played SWOS or Sensible Soccer and trying it out for first time these days are confused about the gameplay and have feelings about it is a bad game, because you play with one button or it is to hard to master - I think SWOS is mostly interessting for players that like old games and these people are more used to oldschool interfaces).

So it would be really nice to see some concept arts what you have in mind. In that way I can understand better, what do you mean by modern interface into SWOS. I will 100% support a new version of SWOS, but only if I have the feeling that it preserve 100% of the look and feel of the old versions in any way. Xbox 360 version was very good in this look and feel thing.
@HairFU:

You can check my 2010 concepts in one of my galleries: https://masakariprime.deviantart.com/gallery/25733989/Project-SENSI

I tried to respect the Sensi look and I think you can tell it's inspired by the old interface. Most of them are a bit cramped, stuffed with too much text or information, they need a little bit more room to breathe.

You can also see some of the work I was hired to do for Tiki Taka Soccer, a 2014 mobile game: https://masakariprime.deviantart.com/art/Tiki-Taka-Soccer-alpha-UI-UX-and-Game-graphics-509241689

It's been 8 years and I've started working on updated mockups of what I would do with "SWOS 2020", by my estimate it's gonna take me around 6 weeks for the whole thing, so stay tuned and I'll be posting progress updates.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 00:15:01 by Masakari »

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #54 on: 15 May 2018, 00:30:17 »
How would your SWOS main menu look like? That'll be interesting.

OGs AMIGA / PC DOS / XBLA (interesting: menu button color from Amiga, background from PC DOS):





In the end, we'd need a small company behind it, willing to purchase code/license and willing to get serious fan/die-hard expertise in!

If you ask me, the answer is a SWOS made by the fans, for the fans. And by “fans” I mean longtime players like our community members, people who have invested enough time in the game to understand the depth and the unquestionable value of its gameplay.
If you do this then you don’t even need to worry about the UI (it may look outdated but it still serves its purpose well) or updated rosters (a non-problem, since users can update all the data they want). You just have to do justice to a timeless classic and bring it to run natively on modern systems.

With a little more effort, XBLA SWOS could have succeded in doing this. Its main problem was that it was just a (poorly marketed) lazy port with broken netplay, and zero post-launch support. Having the old roster with fake names didn’t hurt the game nearly as much as this.
Sure, the dev team would have needed to modify, or better yet, rewrite the source code to get around some of its limitations. As it stands, ball physics are altered as you change resolution, and the game can’t run at the same speed at different refresh rates. And, of course, no netplay. :)
I guess they weren’t given the time (or the money, or both) to choose that kind of approach, so they focused on cosmetic changes to the pitches/stadiums instead. At least they supported the 16:9 ratio, so we were able to see more of the pitch, but that’s the only “worthy” improvement that comes to my mind right now.
Oh, let’s not forget that: “SWOS is the first Xbox Live Arcade game to feature online ads. Massive Inc (owned by Microsoft) has supplied the code to enable banner ads.”

I am totally with you! Especially about this Massive Inc disaster... somehow I suspect this to have negatively effected the online gameplay of XBLA SWOS. But again, that's typical for Codemasters' attitude towards SWOS, like "let's just use SWOS for testing this new system, it's good as a guinea pig!"

Of course you can also try to cater to the younger audiences and present the classic SWOS gameplay with a “modern” UI and new, flashy retro visuals. I just don’t know what their reaction will be once they get out of the menus and start playing. I can think of “OMG, just one button?”, and “Do I actually need to spend time to get good at this thing?”. Or maybe they will appreciate the depth of the gameplay, who knows.
I’m just saying the UI isn’t the first thing I’d bother with if I had the source code. First, I'd try to get rid of the code’s limitations and port it to modern systems, for the people who have been playing the game online for all these years.
Then, you can easily build on that first re-release, revamp the UI, and even start working on the gameplay. Maybe add some modifiers at first, like:
- injuries: random (original gameplay) or depending on the "predisposition for injuries" skill (remixed gameplay)
- stamina: endless (original gameplay) or determined by the "fitness" skill (remixed gameplay)

On a handheld, SWOS could work. About the one-button issue... you can "sell" this to a younger audience with a smart kind of trick. Just tell them it has 4 buttons: Pass, shot, tackle, head! (in that case, only the shot button would need to be altered, simulating a longer pushing of pass button, that's it.)
Where in reality, it's just one, depending on where the ball is! Problem solved :P ) I am quite sure 95% of the youngster wouldn't even notice, but instead be pleased with all those buttons!
« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 02:51:44 by Playaveli »

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Offline Masakari

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #55 on: 15 May 2018, 00:36:24 »
Well, this is the Main Menu I did 8 years ago: https://masakariprime.deviantart.com/art/SWOS2010-Main-Menu-169623236

It's gonna be different now for "SWOS 2020".

Offline HairFU

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #56 on: 15 May 2018, 01:09:06 »
@Masakari:

First of all the menus looking good in it's own way but (1st impression):

Menu design looks like a football manager game. It did not look like SWOS or Sensi. For me it is to far away from original SWOS menu art to have the right feeling (I would not like a menu design like this in a final version of new SWOS).

For me perfect would be a modern version of original SWOS Menu (it did not have to be the same, but very inspired by original menu looking).

This (onyl this one) menu is looking nice. Very basic not much around look and feels not overload for a game like SWOS -> https://pre00.deviantart.net/0897/th/pre/f/2010/181/4/e/swos2010_main_menu_by_gridlinked.jpg
« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 01:19:32 by HairFU »

Offline Masakari

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #57 on: 15 May 2018, 02:40:11 »
@Masakari:

First of all the menus looking good in it's own way but (1st impression):

Menu design looks like a football manager game. It did not look like SWOS or Sensi. For me it is to far away from original SWOS menu art to have the right feeling (I would not like a menu design like this in a final version of new SWOS).

For me perfect would be a modern version of original SWOS Menu (it did not have to be the same, but very inspired by original menu looking).

This (onyl this one) menu is looking nice. Very basic not much around look and feels not overload for a game like SWOS -> https://pre00.deviantart.net/0897/th/pre/f/2010/181/4/e/swos2010_main_menu_by_gridlinked.jpg
Thanks for the feedback. It's actually a very interesting discussion we should all be having - what is SWOS to you?

For example: is SWOS a "pixel art graphics" game, and any new version should keep that look? The XBLA version is on the edge as it has detailed pixel art sprites but then for the stadiums and pitch they are more tradicional 2d graphics. Take Kopanito All-Stars Soccer, for example - it's still 2d but it's cartoon drawn look and very polished. Would "current year" SWOS still need to be pixel art, or an updated art style wouldn't take away from its identity?
Sensi 98, Sensi 2006 and Sociable all went for cartoony 3d graphics and I never felt it resonated with what I think Sensi is.

Regarding the UI concepts from 2010:

First up, many are too busy and cramped, making them indeed a bit "football manager-ish"; Too much information that needed to be presented in a clearer way;

Second, I did use many cues from the original UI, and I'll use these two images as an example:



  • the same pixel art font
  • horizontal rectangular block structure with negative space elements where additional text resides
  • same elements present - player head, number, name, position, value
  • highlight grading - in OG SWOS they use different colors, I still used colors but in a different way as outlined below
  • the pitch with the players' positions / formation
  • the entire formations / tactics block

What I added from my own personal taste as well as better UX design and additional elements was:
  • I identified that SWOS likes to use color in a bold way, but it does look a bit exaggerated today; I also wanted to color-code game modes and also different types of information;
  • So I made the Interface mostly greyscale, with different "trim / highlight" colors for each mode (green for Friendly, light blue for Career, red for Superstar Hero aka "Be a Pro", etc)
  • Top trim with specific game mode color and screen navigation info so you don't get lost in cascading menus
  • Highlight grading with starting eleven, selected player, bench, reserves but in greyscale
  • Color-code information like player position as well as overall rating
  • Useful modern elements like overall rating, individual stats and player info, as well as role selection (captain, corner kick takers, etc)
  • The "formation pitch" turned black and positions displayed instead of player names, for more intuitive formation customization and understanding
  • Bottom trims for useful commands (this was a mock-up for xbox 360) and custom soundtracks

Look at a greyscaled and color-coded version of the old screen:

« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 02:42:04 by Masakari »

Offline Playaveli

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #58 on: 15 May 2018, 02:46:53 »
Good effort. Looks nice, really.
Only thing I'd change:
Get rid of the middle part with selecting captain, penalty, free kicks etc... (just add an extra layer for "Set pieces"). Right now, it's too overwhelming, too full, if you know what I mean.

Also, leave the pitch background on the tactic area green... not grey/black! We're not playing indoor soccer!  :P
« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 02:48:37 by Playaveli »

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Offline Masakari

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #59 on: 15 May 2018, 03:19:23 »
Good effort. Looks nice, really.
Only thing I'd change:
Get rid of the middle part with selecting captain, penalty, free kicks etc... (just add an extra layer for "Set pieces"). Right now, it's too overwhelming, too full, if you know what I mean.

Also, leave the pitch background on the tactic area green... not grey/black! We're not playing indoor soccer!  :P
Thanks, yeah it's too "full of stuff".

I'd love to see Futsal in Sensi style! It's right there in my Sensi 2010 pitch document  ;D