Author Topic: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted  (Read 8121 times)

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Offline lemonheadiv

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #60 on: 15 May 2018, 03:43:22 »
do we have some indication about source code for swos xbla ?

It’s the same Amiga code with an overlay running atop the original game. The three versions (Amiga, PC, Xbox) seem to share the same code. The small differences in ball physics and goalkeeper’s behaviour are due to the fact that Xbox has a different resolution and refresh rate. This is the same reason why PC SWOS gameplay is different from Amiga SWOS. The Xbox version is closer to the Amiga one, though.

If you want to port to modern systems you kind of already have that on Gog.com, SWOS 96/97 has always been on sale there (yes, I know its DOSbox, not "updated").

It’s kind of a stretch to say that an old PC game running on DOSbox with a price tag and no added features is a port to modern systems.
Where did I say I wanted that? :)
I talked about a proper SWOS remake which is what the half-assed Xbox live version should have been; that is, an Amiga SWOS running natively on modern systems with some added features (netplay, support for higher resolutions and different refresh rate without compromising the physics, 16:9 ratio, maybe even the same sprites but with a much larger palette, more skin colours, or an option to switch to a slightly more modern look as in Xbla SWOS…). And I think it would already take a lot of time to try to rewrite the code in order to overcome its limitations and add the some of its features, above all netplay.

If you want to preserve SWOS from oblivion, and do it justice, that's all you need to do.
If you want to make money out of it then it's a different story.

a lot of people that never played SWOS or Sensible Soccer and trying it out for first time these days are confused about the gameplay and have feelings about it is a bad game, because you play with one button or it is to hard to master

That is true and their wrong impression about it being a bad/unworthy game is also related to one particular aspect that aged badly: the AI. It’s totally fine when you play human vs human. However a human vs cpu match doesn’t do the game any justice.
Pair that with the one-button gameplay which requires time to be mastered and you’ll get why the average youtuber is likely to have a good laugh at it.

Offline Masakari

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #61 on: 15 May 2018, 04:03:44 »
You've mentioned that before. I take it the game loop is too simple and the source code would be needed to add some sort of fixed update time step with synchronization? Or is it something else causing it?

I think another reason for newer / younger people finding this type of gameplay weird is because they're too used to handholding, easy games doing half the work for them (FIFA is laughably bad in this regard). Most of us here grew up with tough as nails games, many of them designed to nickel-and-dime you at arcades and unchanged in home ports. Meanwhile modern games are very easy by comparison and also don't rely on punishing mechanics to teach the player their limits through trial and error gameplay and frustration. Nowadays you fall on a chasm and you get teleported back up in a few seconds, when we grew up that was a Life wasted and potentially game over.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 04:05:51 by Masakari »

Offline petarku

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #62 on: 15 May 2018, 12:19:39 »

It’s the same Amiga code with an overlay running atop the original game. The three versions (Amiga, PC, Xbox) seem to share the same code. The small differences in ball physics and goalkeeper’s behaviour are due to the fact that Xbox has a different resolution and refresh rate. This is the same reason why PC SWOS gameplay is different from Amiga SWOS. The Xbox version is closer to the Amiga one, though.

So it is amiga code on which they have some custom adjustments because they made achievements working somehow with custom code that is checking for it.
Knowing that starting code is amiga if core need to be updated, the question is who could take amiga code and do the tweaks , developers who were working on amiga programming languages are rarely active. One option could be the teams that are specialized in conversion but that is costly.

I showed swos to the younger guys on my job this year , we played few games on emulator. They were just joking about pixel art and one button game :)
Nevertheless trick from playaveli could work on them. 

@masakari
I like the art, i think you are well capable to give proper facelift to swos and in the same time keep the swos spirit of it. It is visible just from the comments from the guys here that art could be lifted to whole new level. Now imagine that we have dev team that understand the code and can tweak it just a little.


I think it is worth to approach to Codemasters again , we dont know the situation at the moment , maybe they had some reorg and we can deal with new people there. We need only one person on right position that could have different approach towards swos and everything can change. But i would never ask them to develop it again , just to give some support.
The problem is that i still dont see any feasibility plan who will develop it . I see people here that can play other roles if this even happen but development is other story ..


Offline Playaveli

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #63 on: 15 May 2018, 18:17:00 »
Code from PC version could also be taken into regard, as it's just a written conversion from Amiga:
http://www.sensiblesoccer.de/forum/index.php?topic=4355.0

As lemonheadiv already mentioned, changed physics (ball's flying curves and feeling, goalkeepers, to name the major differences) came through the change of resolution and refresh rates. Reversing that should be not too difficult.

The physics issue kind of made me rethink it.
My thoughts:
- Ball physics are changed by resolution! Logically, having Amiga ball physics on PC DOS resolution would cause the ball fly out of sight (eg. long diagonal shots or fast & wide curled passes). Of course, that cannot happen in SWOS, as the ball is focal point.
- Goalkeeper behavior is changed by the refresh rate. As you can see in XBLA, those are PC DOS'esq keepers.

But anyway, this is slightly off topic. ;)

The extra layer of tweaked graphics (and switching between classic mode and new HD look) can be seen in many remakes or "HD" versions, even in the Monkey Island special editions.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 19:01:03 by Playaveli »

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Offline Masakari

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #64 on: 15 May 2018, 19:12:55 »
The extra layer of tweaked graphics (and switching between classic mode and new HD look) can be seen in many remakes or "HD" versions, even in the Monkey Island special editions.
That's because they didn't add anything, it's literally swapping an asset for another or having two engines running at the same time (like Halo Anniversary).

But if you add even a single new box, you're adding something to Career Mode like a new action, that's a new "box button" that didn't exist in the old UI that you now have to fit in the old UI as well. Not to mention a "HUD" is different from menus that fill the entire screen, the Sensi UI was designed for low resolutions.

A comparison: imagine old SWOS career mode had 5 box buttons on the screen and they filled most of the screen because back then resolution was low and screen sizes were small; now imagine you're adding new features to Career mode and you now have 10 box buttons in the new UI. Do you get why this would be a problem?

I mean, I get it; If you want a straight up HD Remaster aka a fixed version of the XBLA release, then you're probably only adding multiplayer menus.

If you want a new game aka a sequel (which is basically what I would want) then you want to expand the game in a reasonable way, like making a more in-depth Career Mode for example, you can't be tied down by old menu systems.

I guess that's probably the best definition: some fans want an HD Remaster, while some fans want a full sequel.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 19:15:16 by Masakari »

Offline Playaveli

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #65 on: 15 May 2018, 19:19:50 »
A comparison: imagine old SWOS career mode had 5 box buttons on the screen and they filled most of the screen because back then resolution was low and screen sizes were small; now imagine you're adding new features to Career mode and you now have 10 box buttons in the new UI. Do you get why this would be a problem?

I don't see a problem, if you don't exaggerate it. Look at the main menu für PC DOS 16/17. We've added two more boxes, worked fine... And from those boxes you can enter new menus.



I don't think it would be a problem to add 2-3 extra buttons in career mode for example, and show less of the schedule above them. You just have to get the right balance.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 22:42:07 by Playaveli »

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Offline HairFU

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Re: SWOS remake art & opinions wanted
« Reply #66 on: 15 May 2018, 19:49:15 »
For me there is no simple HD Remake needed (we allready have this on Xbox 360). But a sequel also not needed (I am in fear that it would be like FIFA. I really like FIFA 98 and 99 but 2000, 2001 and so on was so much different in any way). For me just add good extras to the game but let the game as it is. Maybe make some tweak some of the gameplay. For example better goalkeepers, red cards for opponent, injuries for cpu and so on (don't change any basics at all, just make the good things even better but don't change gameplay). And carrer mode, I hope it will not be to much and we end into a football manager with SWOS gameplay. I really like some adjustment to nowdays football like 5 years ranking for european tournaments, championsleague system of 2018/2019, Club World Cup and so on. Maybe cpu can make transfers as well and your changes will remember at your team when you take a new offer. But I did not like to see any thing more in depth with financial things or even more, build stadiums and so on. For this kind of things I would play any game but not SWOS. SWOS career mode is great, but for me it just would need some extras added here like I mentioned here in a new version, but not a lot of more. I am not sure, I really like an old very simple football manager called "Anstoss" (or "On the Ball" in english). But I don't get in touch with Anstoss 2 or even Anstoss 3, as there is to much going on for me. So keep it simple. I really like SWOS as it is simple. To much in career mode would be to much different for me and would end up in maybe don't playing the career mode.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2018, 19:53:22 by HairFU »