Author Topic: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports  (Read 36516 times)

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Offline higgipoker

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #255 on: 15 December 2016, 23:38:12 »
Don't know what you're talking about.

lol agreed!  :D
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Offline Sida79

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #256 on: 16 December 2016, 05:03:43 »
Well, that escalated quickly. Do you need more than 1 person involved to say that? ;D

The best scenario would be to use the logic from SWOS 96/97, but I don't know what logic they used. I imagine they used the almanacs and haven't really seen all the players in action. If that is indeed so, the method I proposed would yield slightly better results.

The silly part of it all, and the reason why I would never seriously insist on using that system, is that both the photograph you find online, as well as skin colour itself, can vary, so it's best to leave it to someone who's seen the player in action many times.

You need no better proof for this than to look at Ronaldo's page on transfermarkt, which does its best to come as close as possible to both the swos "white" and the swos "black" sprite at the same time.



Now, just to be clear... this would still not be an obstacle if someone would make automated software that takes a bulk of player's images from google and, with little supervision, mashes them all up in a much better average. What would be an obstacle is that we perceive colour in relation to it's surrounding, if you think of that whole white dress/blue dress thing, or what was it, and optical illusions.

Then there is the question of overlapping ranges with different endpoints, etc. Too much work!
« Last Edit: 16 December 2016, 05:31:23 by Sida79 »

Offline higgipoker

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #257 on: 16 December 2016, 07:44:44 »
Hey Sida, yes, as I feared, this is turning in to a mine field. So I'll say this and then bow out:

The point was that the colours should be decided without relying on our subjective opinion. As this thread shows, that strategy will only result in endless arguments. Arguments about skills are bad enough, but I was just trying to stop this forum going down the road of bickering over who is "really" black. Before you know it, someone says the wrong thing without any bad intentions and the whole thing escalates.

The official editors have done such great work here, for their benefit we should give this topic a wide berth before it can even get started. They don't deserve having accusations thrown at them.

Your idea, like the calculation for player values, takes all subjectivity out of it and that's the point. I'm not suggesting we actually use it either, just that we should make a point right now, for the benefit of the editors, to avoid this "discussion" altogether.

Leave all players as they currently are and let people edit their own datasets if they are unhappy. No more "decisions" on whether or not a player is or ins't  "really black." I suggest we avoid that particular mine field, for the benefit of the editors who have done such an awesome job.

Just my suggestion, hope you'll consider it.

Good luck!  ;D
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Offline Emmeti

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #258 on: 16 December 2016, 09:59:08 »
@Higgipoker

Mine field? Escalates? In what world something like this is a mine field? Not the real one, I am sure about that.
It's way simpler than that.
Guy says: these guys are black. Instead of saying something like: yes, you're right (or right on most of them), but we are not planning updates for now/it was editor choice and we keep it like that anyway/generic excuse/we decided to keep the work of the editor/etc. etc.  Playaveli wrote "None of these players is "really" black. Some less than half-black, or with some african roots."
->In my opinion <- this is complicating a simple thing. 
Let's start from the fact that's the only reply to Ben's post that really matters, being from a mod/admin on topic, then you (and then Sida79 answering his own questions) jumped in...

Noone is attacking the great work done here, well, not me for sure and I am quite sure it's the same for Ben. However I am not blind, that's all and I personally don't like when someone pretends not to see a simple mistake/wrong choice, just because in his mind that ruins the perfect picture.

Especially because Ben was probably right.

Also, take Janko4's post. One reply could be: at the moment we don't want to edit teams (or something like that) but please tell us why you think they're overpowered and where. If the guy replies, he may or may not have a point, if he doesn't case close. Maybe he has something interesting to say or maybe not, but why not take a chance and see if we can talk about something here? The update is not "under attack".
Last thing:
man, this is not kindergarten, you say: Leave all players as they currently are and let people edit their own datasets if they are unhappy.
Implying someone pointing out something wrong or apparently wrong or makes no sense (even if, like in this case, irrelevant) is unhappy. And unhappy is negative, is bad and is, obviously, wrong. Wow, just wow.
I imagine Ben thinking "oh, right, I can edit a dataset myself, thanks Higgipoker!". Was he talking about that? No.
Yes, I don't know what you're talking about and you probably don't know as well.
« Last Edit: 16 December 2016, 10:23:32 by Emmeti »

Offline Sida79

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #259 on: 16 December 2016, 10:43:46 »
@higgipoker - I agree completely. The rest was for the lolz and lolz it got, so mission accomplished :)

@emmeti - you have a point on some of the issues, but generally don't seem to see the faults in your posts with the same efficiency with which you find them in those of others. Your unwarranted reaction, playing the blame game, taking things personally and the tone of the posts in general makes one feel he's arguing with a child, and that's just no productive way to go about your day!

Looking at the editor's decisions, as well as yours and mine, I can conclude probably neither of us is blind but we do all have different ideas of how those players should look, so while "edit it yourself" might sound dismissive, it's really a logical answer.

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #260 on: 16 December 2016, 12:04:53 »
wow, SWOS is really a powerful drug :D

a bunch of pixels and several pages of forum arguing...

but seriously - about editing work:

when editing players, sometimes you get only 1 single photo available (bless the internet if there is one good photo) - not every single player is as popular as Ronaldo :P

EVEN in case of famous players there could be doubts - to avoid "black" and "white" dilemma I give an example of "white" and "blonde" dilemma:

MARIO GOTZE - is he "white" or is he "blonde"

http://ocdn.eu/images/pulscms/YjQ7MDQsMCwwLGQyMyw3NjM7MDYsMzIwLDFjMg__/ddfe441c4c0d7177a39b1ace88a9c7a7.jpg

or

http://www.banzaj.pl/pictures/sport/pilka_nozna/Pilkarze_cd/Mario_Goetze/mario_gotze.JPG

hard to tell

imagine you have only one of those pictures available...

thus:

1. I think it is safe to assume EVERY editor gave his best to do his work

2. everyone here in the forum is welcome to post his suggestions - we all read it :) and it is not impossible to make another patch sometime...

no big problem here, friends

Offline higgipoker

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #261 on: 16 December 2016, 12:43:36 »

Noone is attacking the great work done here, well, not me for sure and I am quite sure it's the same for Ben. However I am not blind, that's all and I personally don't like when someone pretends not to see a simple mistake/wrong choice, just because in his mind that ruins the perfect picture.

Especially because Ben was probably right.


This is the problem in a nutshell. Now who is making accusations? Nobody said anything about "ruining a perfect picture." WTF?!

"Simple mistake/wrong choice" in YOUR opinion. The fact of the matter is that it is an entirely subjective, and SENSITIVE topic. You could line up photographs of a thousand real players covering every single shade from pale white to darkest black. Where would YOU draw the line? Why are YOU right?

Nobody accused you or Ben of anything. My point was that this has the POTENTIAL to escalate and that we should should shield the editors who have done such a great job from this before it has a chance to.

Anybody who can't see why this particular question is a dangerous mine-filed, as opposed to say player skills, is simply deluded. This is a great community and I just don't want it opened up to questions like "well why did you decide this guy is white, he's clearly a black man, what makes someone "really" black etc etc."

If you aren't wary of the potential of such a discussion to escalate badly, even among friends, then you have lived a very sheltered life!

So yes, I say leave the skin colours as they are now. Not to dismiss people who disagree with the data, but to not impose a difficult decision on the editors, opening them up to arguments and accusations.
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Offline Hungry Horace

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #262 on: 16 December 2016, 13:36:44 »
Also, Sheffield Wednesday squad errors:-

Forestieri should be LW or A


As a Wednesday fan, if he isnt an Attacker in the game, i won't play this update ;)


ON a more serious note, i havent time to read through 18 pages of comments, but has anyone asked... Why hasnt the Wembley image been updated? I did this myself in a fairly receny update and would be willing to share the file.


Also, is there anywhere I can see the final modifications on the pitch fles? Just genuinely curious to see what changes went in.
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Offline Rock and Roll

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #263 on: 16 December 2016, 14:38:02 »
OK. As has been said, a difficult subject to discuss and I don't think this is the place to discuss it.
I would only like to emphasize that there were even more difficult things to decide on.
Think about strips (there were some crazy ones in El Salvador).
Not just design but colours (pink any one?).
What I found even harder was when a player had black or blond hair.
In El Salvador I was dying to find people without black hair.

It's all subject to opinion.
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Offline Playaveli

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #264 on: 16 December 2016, 21:18:10 »
Why hasnt the Wembley image been updated? I did this myself in a fairly receny update and would be willing to share the file.

Also, is there anywhere I can see the final modifications on the pitch fles? Just genuinely curious to see what changes went in.

To be honest, we haven't discussed on the Wembley image, but a good idea... Will think about it.
Which image did you take to replace good old Wembley?

Pitch modifications:
- Adboards with 16/17 instead of 96/97
- Coaching zone added in front of the benches!

Other modifications:
- Main menu logo, with 16/17
- Purple background logo, with 16/17
- Loader1.256 (intro)
- TWO.256 (intro)

That's it. We didn't want to change more, but keep the low-key element of the original.

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Offline lemonheadiv

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #265 on: 16 December 2016, 22:34:24 »
OK. As has been said, a difficult subject to discuss and I don't think this is the place to discuss it.
I would only like to emphasize that there were even more difficult things to decide on.
Think about strips (there were some crazy ones in El Salvador).
Not just design but colours (pink any one?).
What I found even harder was when a player had black or blond hair.
In El Salvador I was dying to find people without black hair.

It's all subject to opinion.

I agree. The black/blond hair is a tough one, as can be the black/white skin. I think a bit of common sense is enough to get things right. No need to make any arithmetic rule or compare shades in photographs (especially when they are all coming from different sources).

Anyway it's never too late if anyone wants to notify us of some wrong choice in skin color.

I don't really see any danger here for us editors or any necessity of a "shield". The bug report has been on point so far and I think we know how to reply to any complaint, regardless of its fairness. All of this without resorting to the infamous expression "it's not a bug, it's a feature" :)


Offline Playaveli

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #266 on: 16 December 2016, 23:53:41 »
^^ Well said!

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Offline higgipoker

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #267 on: 17 December 2016, 09:24:32 »
Well have at it then... I mean  I agree, I'm one of those who can laugh at calling a black man "not a real black man..."  ;D but you should just be aware that there is the potential for people to take comments/decisions like that VERY seriously. I see the potential for editors to put their foot in it without even realising, if we go down the road of allowing debates over who should be black and who should be white. I just think it's better to avoid it altogether here, that's all.

It is NOT comparable to hair colour. That is simply naive.
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Offline Playaveli

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #268 on: 17 December 2016, 11:03:05 »
This is democracy, and everyone is entitled to his opinion, as long as it isn't racist or similar. If it is, posts will be deleted, users warned & and later banned.
That's it.

So, please keep on reporting bugs, even about skin/hair colors.
If I think they are appropriate, I'll happily perform a patch (if there will be one, at all).

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Offline higgipoker

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Re: SWOS 16/17 Error and bug reports
« Reply #269 on: 17 December 2016, 14:06:37 »
Aright but imma create a hell of a stink if there is a player who identifies as black but the editor refuses to make him black!!!!

Thank god Eminem isn't a footballer....

 ;D
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