Re: What joystick you using

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11 years 2 months ago #90101 by Saulot
Replied by Saulot on topic Re: What joystick you using
Well I can understand Retrieving | Searain s point of view...
Its like electronics, I seek the best tools so they [the tools] don t limit my abilities.
So when my trusty tomahawk start to limit my ability to play SWOS (i.e. when I will be a far better player of SWOS) then and only then I will consider changing my joystick.
You wouldn t buy a Ferrari as your first car right?

Now for the upcoming event, it would be at 19/9 or 26/9, its not decided yet but I will keep you posted!
And of course, everyone is invited!!

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11 years 2 months ago - 11 years 2 months ago #90108 by Retrieving

I could care less if people won tournaments with those anachronistic joysticks, they would have probably been twice as better at the game had they been using proper controllers. ;)


I totally disagree. Even more than disagree if that s possible.
This joystick-discussion about what material might be best etc. etc. is pretty much senseless.
The best controller is always the one you feel comfortable with AND (!!) are used to it. It s a ALWAYS matter of taste, and not how old, technically outdated or updated a controller is.

Normally I hate this phrase but: End of story!!


First and foremost I never once mentioned the Gravis gamepad for a reason, it s an exceptionally good controller even for todays standards (and so is the Saturn joypad). Joysticks != joypads.

Now bear with me for a minute while I try to get my point across the best I can. :D

Everything in SWOS gameplay is time-dependant so yes, whether you believe it or not, a controller that cuts down deadzone, throw and engage distance will allow you to do stuff you couldn t normally do with say, PS3 analog sticks or Flight simulator analog joystick (other elements are lag from connection and monitor refresh lag, try playing at 100 Hz as opposed to 50 Hz then get back 2 me). Not that difficult to grasp really.

This is also the reason why Keyboards and Keypads are such awesome controllers for SWOS (most likely the best controller type, barring a few exceptions): very small throw, pretty much null engage distance, tiny deazone zone and you can hit two directions with two different fingers in rapid succession to bring the delay between inputs to zero.

Has anybody here ever wondered why keyboard players seem to be able to achieve longer distances with shoots and looping/standing headers and the likes? The answer is less delay between each input (which is why I designed a twin stick, this way I can mimic the keyboard players usage of two fingers in rapid succession by using both hands), can t be that fast with regular joysticks since you have to travel from one engage zone to the opposite one and that takes time and time in SWOS makes all the difference in the world.

Also, accuracy is pivotal (just like in shoot em ups and certain beat em up s) so you ll want a controller that lets you hit each direction with the same throw percentages without any sort of hinderance in order to avoid mixing up/skipping inputs. Meterials, lenght of the shaft, mounting design, spring tension, restrictor gates shape and type of microswitches (cherry, leaf, optical) play a pretty large role into this and allow you to fine-tune your joystick til you feel 100% comfortable with it (so instead of adapting to the controller you can make it fit your playstyle).

Big issue I have with 90 s joysticks is that most of them got a square set of switches coupled up with a sort of circular restrictor.

There is a contradiction to having a square set of switches with a circular restriction in engaging them. The glory of the square gate is the balance of equally-sized engage zones with the equally-sized combined edges of the deadzone and throws for each direction. The square gate are designed and implemented to best-accommodate the diagonals. This is why high-quality parts manufacturers such as Sanwa and Seimitsu generally stock their joysticks with square gates (my stick for instance got square gates on both joysticks whereas the Quickshot Apache had this weird cross-like actuator coupled up with a circular restrictor that made hitting diagonals a lot harder).

EDIT: this is what I m talking about:


PS: I won everything in SWOS (online offline) with a Gravis Gamepad, from the early 90ies. I am sure this is being considered outdated, too?! Refering to your quote this would mean there is a controller out there which would enable me to beat Coolio twenty times in a row if it made me twice as good. LOL! Or scoring a triple or quadruple standing header... ;D


1. As mentioned above, Gravis gamepad is good, so this is kinda a moot point.
2. Keyboards are top-notch controllers for SWOS no matter how you look at it, so neither you nor Coolio (a keyboard user unless I m mistaken) would gain anything by playing with Arcade tech. Joystick players on the other hand would surely improve.

Case in point being the fact that my performances, for instance, have improved greatly in a very short period of time ever since I started playing with my twin stick and a proper monitor. Delay between inputs was cut down by a whole lot compared to my previous set-up (Quickshot Apache + LCD screen with 30+ ms of refresh lag) and that was a difference maker. Skill was obviously already there (I was an excellent offline player to begin with) but was somehow held back by outdated/inefficient technology, once this was replaced by better stuff my real level started to show.

I totally disagree. Even more than disagree if that s possible.
This joystick-discussion about what material might be best etc. etc. is pretty much senseless.
The best controller is always the one you feel comfortable with AND (!!) are used to it. It s a ALWAYS matter of taste, and not how old, technically outdated or updated a controller is.


Hence the now, you can tell me that you re used to them and that you d never see yourself playing with anything else and that s fine really (in fact I loved them as well and still do and the transition from Quickshot Apaches to my current joystick took me quite a while) .

Of course you ll tend to play better with the controller you ve been using the most lol, Joystick players however would probably perform better with Arcade tech, given the same amount of time logged into each controller (arcade Vs. 90 s joystick) and factoring in some degree of customization.

Kinda goes without saying that if you ve played with a Competition Pro for the past 15 years you ain t gonna get any better by switching to Arcade sticks unless you put some time into getting used to it...


Oh, I am only talking about SWOS here. And not beat em up-games... Please take that into regard. You cannot compare the two genres.


Have you ever actually played beat em ups such as Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike competitively? Judging by your statements...probably not.

In fact, they have so much in common with SWOS it s not even funny.

If you pass me the analogy, I see both of them as playing chess at 100 Km/h.

Total freedom of control within the environment, layered gameplay (as in performing some moves alone takes quite the skill and dexterity), easy to pick up, yet hard to master control system/gameplay, lots of mindgames involved as you need to think 3 steps ahead of your opponent if you want to pose a threat to the best players, you can nullify any offensive strategy/move as long as you perform the appropriate countermeasure with the right timing, lightning-quick gameplay, unforgiving hitboxes and so much need for precision/accuracy that even 1 pixel or 1 frame will make a difference.

Hence the need for similar controllers.

Normally I hate this phrase but: End of story!!


You tend to throw that line around a lot everytime you lack knowledge or fail to understand something. I wouldn t be so hasty with jumping to conclusions if I were you. :D

That being said, anybody can use whatever they see fit, I ll stick (no pun intended lol) with my hand-made Arcade-stick though. ;)

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11 years 2 months ago - 11 years 2 months ago #90109 by Playaveli

You tend to bring up this statement everytime you lack knowledge or fail to understand something. I wouldn t be so hasty with jumping to conclusions if I were you. :D


I was stating, that I only talk about SWOS. And in that case, I don t have a lack of knowledge. And since I have been playing this game for almost 2 decades now I am not too hasty with conclusions, too. It s just experience.
And really, nobody has to play beat-em-up-games to judge a controller s suitability for a Sensible Soccer game. You cannot mix the two together. If you can do that, fine.

If modern technology joystick, pads, parts etc. pp. would really give SWOS players a boost of ability, or even make them twice as better , we could see that. But we can t.
Just an example:
Lobo and Bobbiebobras are Joystick players, but it s 100% sure that any other stick than their usual old Amiga quickjoy would decrease their ability on pitch.

If all of that is true to you, then you are an exception. And exceptions are mostly the best prove for a rule.
I just think you are on the wrong track, concerning modern technology s effect on SWOS, or even player skills. I disagree just as much as I did on the starmaxbomber-issue... ;)

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11 years 2 months ago #90111 by Playaveli
Maybe I should add something:
I really respect your knowledge about this technical stuff. It s very interesting to read.
And to some point, you have to be right, sure. Deadzones, etc pp. are surely an issue.

But what it s worth if the thing doesn t feel comfortable in one s hand? You d win timing, but loose feeling. And that s a bad exchange.
And after 15 years of playing (like the most of us did) it s impossible to adapt to a new controller.
If anything, you have to rebuild the original pad or stick, with modern interiors. That could have success, as Redhair s modded Joystick has proven.

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11 years 2 months ago #90112 by Retrieving


I was stating, that I only talk about SWOS. And in that case, I don t have a lack of knowledge. And since I have been playing this game for almost 2 decades now I am not too hasty with conclusions, too. It s just experience.
And really, nobody has to play beat-em-up-games to judge a controller s suitability for a Sensible Soccer game. You cannot mix the two together. If you can do that, fine.

You cannot compare the two genres.


I picked up that line cause you said that I could not compare beat em ups/shmups to SWOS. How can you tell whether anybody can compare them or not on any level if you ve never even played them? That s what I meant, I might ve misunderstood though.

Then I tried to further explain the comparison with an analogy, it didn t work though so I ll have to make you play them! I bet you d be a great SFIII player! :D

If modern technology joystick, pads, parts etc. pp. would really give SWOS players a boost of ability, or even make them twice as better , we could see that. But we can t.
Just an example:
Lobo and Bobbiebobras are Joystick players, but it s 100% sure that any other stick than their usual old Amiga quickjoy would decrease their ability on pitch.

If all of that is true to you, then you are an exception. And exceptions are mostly the best prove for a rule.
I just think you are on the wrong track, concerning modern technology s effect on SWOS, or even player skills. I disagree just as much as I did on the starmaxbomber-issue... ;)


How many people here ever used Arcade tech in their joysticks and custom designs? Probably no one besides me. So yeah...

Also, I ll have to gift a Retristicks-brand Joystick to lobo and Bobbie sometimes!! :D (perhaps when Sanwa will make a discount on those JLJ joysticks cuz they re quite pricy ;; )

But what it s worth if the thing doesn t feel comfortable in one s hand? You d win timing, but loose feeling. And that s a bad exchange.
And after 15 years of playing (like the most of us did) it s impossible to adapt to a new controller.
If anything, you have to rebuild the original pad or stick, with modern interiors. That could have success, as Redhair s modded Joystick has proven.


That, I agree. It s also the reason why customization is so important.

Also, I do recognize that some people may not be able to get used to the new controller after so long (took me a long time as well). That s their problem though and doesn t make the controllers themselves any less effective from an objective standpoint (although they d probably be better off with their old joysticks).

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11 years 2 months ago #90113 by Playaveli

Also, I do recognize that some people may not be able to get used to the new controller after so long (took me a long time as well). That s their problem though and doesn t make the controllers themselves any less effective from an objective standpoint (although they d probably be better off with their old joysticks).


The objective standpoint is the problem we face here.
The choice of a controller is always subjective. Otherwise everybody would play with the same stick/pad. And to be a bit nostalgic: I am happy that there isn t something like the ultimate controller . If there was we couldn t have an interesting discussion like this.

PS: I played Mortal Kombat a lot on the PC. And SF II Turbo on the SNES. ;)

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11 years 2 months ago #90114 by dior
Replied by dior on topic Re: What joystick you using
I must say you guys it s really fascinating to read. Really. I think i got the point of Retrieving. It s because swos for me it s not only online playing, friends for years, offline meetings, emotions etc (of course it s most important) but there is something more - swos is an occasion for - lets call it like that - technicall research. I always wanted to upgrade my equipment, i just love to solder, connect, turn the screw, i love to try new joys over and over again. Dunno its just make me relaxed when i can do something by my barry hands and if i can use it once or twice a year on our meetings ;) Iironically i stil play like shit but at least i dont have any other excuse then my natural skils (because equipment is prepared as good as its possible). And now Retrieving showed me all that Sanwa and Seimitsu arcade joys (thanks for that, first order already made) - its geveing me more energy to do something for swos. And for the end - what a crazy people we are Mates ;) - sory for offtopic, lets focus on our Greek friends again - really nice pics, would be fantastic to ply with you in offline event some time!
Cheers!

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11 years 2 months ago #90116 by Playaveli
Ok, topics merged...

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11 years 1 month ago #92264 by dior
Replied by dior on topic Re: What joystick you using
Hello Mates ;) And here is my leatest work (thanks to Retri advices). Inside metal housing is seimitsu LS-56 joy - works just fantastic, huge difrence if we compare basic comp pro. Hope to increes my skills just a bit :)
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11 years 1 month ago - 11 years 1 month ago #92269 by Retrieving

Hello Mates ;) And here is my leatest work (thanks to Retri advices). Inside metal housing is seimitsu LS-56 joy - works just fantastic, huge difrence if we compare basic comp pro. Hope to increes my skills just a bit :)


Pretty slick looking mate, great job! :D

I m glad I could be of help and I m happy that someone else besides me finally recognizes the effectiveness of arcade sticks/arcade parts! :)

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