Better connection wins the game!

More
12 years 6 months ago - 12 years 6 months ago #61448 by Retrieving


Question is would it work fine in a game like swos? You can play fighting games fine with some frameskips, swos is completely different though.


er...no; you re probably stuck in 1991 beat em up-wise, things have changed a lot since those days.

The gameplay of the most recent iterations of the big fighting franchises such as Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike, Guilty Gear XX, Garou: Mark of the Wolves, King of Fighters 2k+, Street Fighter IV and so forth actually rely on frame-by-frame micro-management of command inputting which for obvious reasons couldn t at any rate transcend a lag-free gaming environment.

Specifically, in games like SFIII and SFIV there s a lot more than meets the eye, nearly every move can be kara-cancelled into something else as long as you input your string of commands fast enough, however in order to make your cancel and subsequential move/combo/special/ultra/whatever effective your timing has got to be so accurate that in most cases the game requires you to start your inputting at a specific frame (SFIV is a little more lenient under this aspect because it s aimed at the big audience whereas SFIII was absolutely unforgiving, in a brutally hardcore ish way).

Hence the need for a conceptually brand-new netcode that allows nearly lag-free online skirmishes. People wouldn t play modern beat em up s (which are one of the most skill-demanding and technically deep videoludic experiences out there nowadays) over the net as much if stuff like GGPO and 2DF didn t exist since even a few frames of input delay are, in fact, a big deal.

Try SFIV sometimes (nothing to do with the middlewares mentioned above, however it s a pretty impressive example of technologically advanced netcode), I can kara cancel an EX Shoryuken through a Focus Attack Dash (whole SRK motion, then when the right frame comes 2 buttons + forward x2) within 1-2 frames from the beginning of the animation on screen and inject the commands string for a pretty complex Ultra combo in the matter of a split second, yet my opponent can react just fine most of the times even though he s playing from across the ocean and neither of us perceives any lag or input delay, it s really THAT amazing (I play with american friends on daily basis and I have yet to come across a laggy match, I swear). Coming from years of friggin Kaillera I was skeptical too at first and had to try it out to believe it.

Now, back to GGPO (which wouldn t work with Amiga games as it is, the development team would have to add an Amiga driver or something), in layman s terms it uses a peer-to-peer topology to run a complete copy of your game for each player, transmitting controller inputs over the network to keep these copies in sync. Each player s inputs are sent to their copy of the game without having to wait for their opponent s to arrive over the network. If the simulations diverge, GGPO rolls back to the most recent accurate state, corrects the mistake, and jumps back to the current frame, all before the player can notice . Whatever that means (I m in no way, shape or form a networking savvy individual but I can tell if my playstyle is being hindered by lag or not).

What really matters in my book is that all of the above provides the illusion of lag-free gameplay and effectively guarantees single frame response delay; the difference between Kaillera and GGPO becomes astonishing once you compare the respective performances over large distances (100ms+).

2DF is similar, just not as good performance wise.
The topic has been locked.
More
12 years 6 months ago #61455 by daimaou
You re right about me and beat em ups. Recent ones are way too complex and require lots and lots of practicing to get the timings right for one to be good at them. I just don t have the required time for that now so I skip them. I play Soul Calibur IV and it s nice, but I have to admit I m a noob at it since I can only afford playing it occasionally. SF IV looks tempting too, but there s the same problem with not enough time for it.
Anyway back to GGPO, I ll give it a try (lets see if I can find the right Roms for it ;)), seems this is an emulator on it s own though (or does it use mame?) and it only runs 12 MAME games so far? I suppose making it work on other systems would probably be very complicated plus the developers don t seem to be interested on that. It s fighting game oriented like most of this kind of tools are.

I m still sceptical with this for swos, I ve tested some lag-free solutions in the past, and for me none of them made any significant difference lagwise, maybe this one will be better.
The topic has been locked.
More
12 years 6 months ago #61479 by Playaveli
@ Retrieving:

You cannot compare SWOS with ANY other game out there.
On Xbox360 you can play egoshooters with superb graphics online, with no lag or delay... but SWOS on XBLA has even more problems with lag and delay than Amiga online (kaillera).
Whatever these new methods are... they won t help us with SWOS running lag-free or delay-free.
The topic has been locked.
More
12 years 6 months ago #61486 by Falcon
is there any proof to your claim?
The topic has been locked.
More
12 years 6 months ago - 12 years 6 months ago #61537 by Retrieving
@ Playa: each game has its own proprietary netcode, especially if it s stuff like Street Fighter IV or Gran Turismo 5 (whose online is 100% p2p-powered) that doesn t rely on Xbox LIVE or Playstation Network servers.

As a matter of fact you cannot play reliably any modern 2D beat em up (SFIII, GGXX, Garou, KOFXII, BlazBlue, etc., technically even SFIV is conceptually-wise a 2D fighter since the hitboxes were kept bidimensional) with more than 1 frame delay, whereas you could play Sensible just fine with 3-4 frames delay (I get that pretty much everytime while playing via WEleague server and it s perfectly bearable, actually almost unnoticeable, you guys on Arena get MUCH higher lag/input delay while playing int l matches and never really complained much): It s simply a game design issue .

Do we agree here that Codemasters port was a rather mediocre and definately half-assed attempt at banking off of SWOS popularity among retrogamers both programming and marketing-wise? Thought so.

@Falcon: hundreds of thousands people scattered all over the world (mind you, in the beat em up scene matches between japanese and american players are more common than Polish Vs. Deutsche on ss.de) who dropped Kaillera and the likes in favor of either GGPO or 2DF for their beat em up s online? Just try them yourself, trust me you will notice a difference. Kaillera is obsolete while playing over long distances.

Furthermore I don t think I ve been claiming anything so obscure, it s really common knowledge in the gaming community. I was just letting you guys know because I d like to see int l-scale online play improve.
The topic has been locked.
More
12 years 6 months ago - 12 years 6 months ago #61554 by Retrieving
I mean, Kaillera was awesome a few years ago but technology inevitably ends up advancing...the fact that GGPO and 2DF might be better doesn t seem that difficult to conceive to me...on the other hand claiming that the aforementioned softwares couldn t at any rate improve the online experience and ruling them out before even trying any of them or knowing what they are about, point-blank refusing to keep them in consideration is sorta being uhm, flat-out intransigent for no apparent reason whatsoever, don t you think?

Whatever these new methods are... they won t help us with SWOS running lag-free or delay-free.

Again, baseless assumptions that left me literally baffled;

how the heck would you know if you haven t even tried any of them? What exactly makes you so adamantine about their hypothetical inefficiency? They run smoothly much more complex games over ciclopic distances* (and Kaillera doesn t perform as well with the same exact titles), why wouldn t they work with SWOS? Don t even think about answering cuz SWOS is different, duh cause that s already been covered previously.

This is like the hacks argument all over again, you guys should really get over yourselves and drop the we know cuz we just do attitude..it s not cool. You don t know it all, neither do I, that s why we talk things out and everyone brings his contribution to the table.



*(not my word either, there s a bazillion of beat em up s enthusiasts who switched to them and they re widely acknowledged as the most nitpicky players of the whole online-gaming community when it comes to matchmaking softwares and netplay middlewares...they have to be, given the characteristics of the gameplay of the games they re stuck with.
The topic has been locked.
More
12 years 6 months ago - 12 years 6 months ago #61560 by Retrieving
that being said...I could care less about this kinda stuff, I hardly ever play on .de and generally I don t get that much lag with Kaillera while facing other italian players; all in all, it was just a suggestion.

fair int l competitions = SensiDays, as far as I m concerned.
The topic has been locked.
More
12 years 6 months ago #61605 by Playaveli
The hack stuff is already 100% answered. It is NOT possible to cheat an online game with kaillera, because of desynch. If versions differ, the game looses synchronisation. (And Mr. Coolio scored his recorded goals in online matches).
That is FACT. And doesn t need an argument like we know cause we do . It s cold coffee, let s don t warm it up. It will taste horrible. ;)

Please post some links with info on GGPO and 2DF. Thank you.
The topic has been locked.
More
12 years 6 months ago - 12 years 6 months ago #61606 by LIK

The hack stuff is already 100% answered. It is NOT possible to cheat an online game with kaillera, because of desynch. If versions differ, the game looses synchronisation. (And Mr. Coolio scored his recorded goals in online matches).
That is FACT. And doesn t need an argument like we know cause we do . It s cold coffee, let s don t warm it up. It will taste horrible. ;)


Yes, and he should get some action from 2007 SD, and ofc in offline tournaments people score more standard goals because there is no second chance.

And if you cant do something it is not good to assume that others are cheating.

And weis is using same hack and he is not even top 20 in amiga
?

The topic has been locked.
More
12 years 6 months ago #61614 by Falcon
@Retrieving: I am absolutely with you in here.

I don t see how we could not care whether the matches vs. players from Australia or the States could improve alot. Kaillera may work just fine in central Europe, but that does not mean things can t improve.
The topic has been locked.
Time to create page: 0.192 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum