Re: Do we need special p2p-rules?

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12 years 5 months ago #62074 by Bomb


As far as servers, there are no good servers for swos rather than arena and swos.info afaik so all players closer to them will always have better pings there. For me this situation is simple if I m forced by rules on playing my games on server it will be the end of online swos competitions for me since I just can t play there [...]

Versus me if anyone is not confortable with the pings I m always ok with playing a friendly before the match to help getting used to the delay. If we have more than 4 skips I m the first to ask if it wouldn t be better to play another time.


difficult... in your case, daimaou, I thought there are servers all over europe (france or spain, for example). If that would be the case, it would be possible to meet you somewhere in the middle (and both players would have a ping of 60 or 70 ms)... :P

that could be a possible compromise; but seems not to be like this (to be honest: I have no idea, how many and what kind of servers exist in europe...)
so for every player it seems to be a special case - looks like we have to deal with it till the internet is (still) faster...
best solution really seems to play one or two friendlies before the important matches.
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12 years 5 months ago - 12 years 5 months ago #62077 by EJDER-Z
I wasn t going to interfere (although I m the ultimate extreme of this case in this community and I talked a lot about it before to keep playin:) coz people already mentioned everything I d say, just a mere correction that we play with around 110 ms with 4 frames delay almost every season with Playa, Lobo and Ali, and I think delay value is directly proportional and a function of the ping value, so it should be the same everytime. Also just to note that we tried the friendly playing thing with several asl players, I think there should be no problem with that being set as a rule. My pings, since they are higher vary larger also, from around 100-170, so I personally would need that adaptation too.
We also tried one server on each game thing with Sheriff once where there was a problem with p2p, and I believe both games ended 5-0, with an agg. of 5-5. We decided to forget about those games and waited until the p2p was back on, because that means a guaranteed 3 points for each side and I think that is not just unfair to the two players in competitive league like ASL, where people might get 2 draws thus 2 points each.

I think this discussion leaded to no end each time it was opened because people think in different ways about what they think about and want from online swos. Waenae wants to play online swos as he plays offline, because he s able to do it more freely than someone in Japan or USA, there are a lot of players to play there that way. A community of only German players would have no such problems, he wants this to get universal, me too, we all want to play with the same ping! But that just doesn t happen with what we currently have as the technology, no matter how hard we want it:(
There was no p2p mode when I first started here and was UNABLE to play asl or any other international tournaments then. I think nothing is more unfair than a huge ping difference in an online game, you can literally see that your opponent and you react may be at the same time but what he does happens and what you do doesn t, and that can not be adapted to, a constant advantage in every millisecond is there in every single game. Thus I tried to establish a US league with the other old swoser Ph.D students here, but it didn t last, both for I won the title every time and they lost ambition after a couple of months and also that they weren t as ambitious about swos as I am overall.

So unlike waenae, for me there is not a single country league to play (trust me I even tried to start a UK league since that s the closest, by msging all UK players!:), so what I can want from online swos is limited to being able to play with great players rather than the computer or no swos at all (I don t wanna play tetris!) in some way. Luckily, most high end players have better connections so only ASL works for me (it obviously not luck btw, they have better connections because they put effort and money to play better, like I have the best possible connect in US and I go to the office to play p2p when my opponent cannot host, with the stress that my boss will step in anytime:). But I still wanna (like waenae:) play like I play with my friends at Rutgers, also as in career. That is why I sincerely hope for the days where latencies will decrease or some technology will allow less delay with 3 digit pings. Only other solution is to crop the geographical areas of access and isolate us (US:), which wouldn t change much for you as I m just one player in a league of 12, but it WILL change for me, because I know the difference between some swos and no swos :(

Finally, I would like to say I deeply appreciate the understanding and tolerance of all Super ASL players for the last 9 seasons and those on lower leagues earlier, that is the only reason why I could keep playin after those many discussions. But I ll definitely leave the day they ask me out.


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12 years 5 months ago - 12 years 5 months ago #62083 by Wänä81


Waenae wants to play online swos as he plays offline, because he s able to do it more freely than someone in Japan or USA, there are a lot of players to play there that way.


That´s not true , and i don´t know, how you know, what i want !?!?!? You can ask all turkish, portuguese, italian or ex-yug players (i´m sure i forgot some ;) ), i play with them all p2p with up to 80ms ping and 4 frames delay!
I said i am an offline-player because i know how does real SWOS feels like. WinUAE is not an AMIGA! And when you must play a game with more speed on emulator with a higher ping, it´s totally different.

As i said, 80ms and 4 frames are the last playable delay for me. I think we must live with such big delays...now ;) But hey, no one can force me to play p2p with 5 frames and 100ms! If there will be a rule one day, i must accept that. otherwise the better option for me is to play 2 matches on server.

So, in my eyes we need a special p2p-rule!!! The discussions will never end if we haven´t them

Greetz
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12 years 5 months ago #62086 by RobChef
Isn t the official rule nobody has to play p2p, and the unofficial part that you still do it if your opponent has no playable server.

I like the new idea of a friendly first.

Also an good option is to try again on another day. Often helps.
Doesn t work in 1-day-cups, but hey who ever hosts a cup is free to setup his own rules.
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12 years 5 months ago - 12 years 5 months ago #62089 by Retrieving


Two unfair matches are fair for both , where is the problem ?

I´m an offline-player ! Online is not my beloved thing, but i play it with ping and lags and delay.... !


Well, if we play online ( and this topic is about that ) then it s normal to have lags and delay. Many of us never had the chance to experience that offline feeling that a 15ms ping on a server can give.
And, do you think it s easy to play for someone that has a 4 frames delay? Yes, he can get used to it but it will never be like playing offline nor like doing so wih 30ms of ping.
But then again since in online play there are lags, you have to deal with them...and that s a skill too.



I strongly disagree with that last statement: firstable, keep in mind that the game was designed to be played in lag-free conditions, thus the fact you ve never had first-hand experiences is completely irrelevant to the points in question. Once you start factoring in stuff that are clearly beyond the scope of the original concept the gameplay revoleves around you ve got to think about rules and restrictions to put in place in order to balance things out as well, otherwise you d end up giving up too much of the original game just to play online, making the whole ordeal rather pointless and partially falsifying the competition.

In second instance I likewise strongly believe that anything above 1~2 frameskip (let s say somewhere in between) and you re either playing Sensible World of Guessing or Sensible Moon of Soccer. Thanks but no thanks, the whole game-session simply becomes way too much depending on luck and randomness, nearly kicking out of the picture the skill-factor and effectively turning one of the most meritocratic multiplayer gaming experiences ever conceived into a scrub-oriented and mnemonic-driven cheapness-fest.

Tell you what...I think there s one big misunderstanding that should be pointed out before advancing with the discussion: the concept of smoothness itself has been mistakenly stretched quite a bit throughout the thread: lit up your Amiga and play a few matches on it (avoid LCD monitors or HDTV as well while you re at it, they generally bring forth their fair share of inherent delay as well...as a matter of fact I ve seen people carry their own 10 yrs. old CRT monitors to Street Fighter III ran-bats - btw you could easily test your TV with Rockband input delay detecting feature) then get back to your PC and play with an opponent who resides within your country borders (unless you live in China, Australia or something of the likes eh), you ll feel like someone has loaded your players with 10Kg. of extra pixels each.

Stop fooling yourselves, even with just 2~3 frameskips the game is FAR from being silk-smooth and if you re used to play offline a lot (much like the vast majority of oldschool players such as myself and Waenae) the lag/input delay ends up fuc.king up your timing badly to the point that 35 minutes into the game you just stand there helplessly, blabbing about how frustrating the whole experience has been instead of playing (or at least that s what happens to me haha). Sure you might suck it up for the sake of playing your favourite game of all time however that doesn t mean it ain t bull$hit. It s NOT right, no matter how you sweeten it.

Moreover, as others have mentioned above, once you ve overcome the 80~ ms threshold it just stops being even remotely worthwhile.

Don t get me wrong, I m not trying to belittle anyone or dwindle away anyone s accomplishments however it is definately not the game we ve always known, it s a somewhat edulcorated version (you may or may not dislike) with his own peculiar gameplay which on my book is just as different as say...the PC or mobile phone versions can be...but...that s not even the point, unfortunately.

The real issue here is that adding insult to injury the online played over long distances doesn t hold any friggin consistency either: depending on your opponent/online mode/connection/f***ton more variables the feel is pretty much ever-changing so whoever is quicker to adapt to the new circumstances (rather than who s more skilled) or whose playing-style fits better the aforementioned conditions prevails. And that s it. That s what people are complaining about. That s what ultimately throws people off and doesn t allow equity.

So yeah, Is it fair? I don t think so, not entirely at least: due to the moltitude of variables previously mentioned oftentimes the outcome of a match is literally up for anyone s guess even when skill-wise the gap between the players is nothing short of manifest (I could care less if both players are suffering the same lag and inputting delay, one of them will always be at an advantage simply because he might ve played more matches in a similar environment. It turns into a matter of experience, not skill, are you seriously telling me I ve got to start grinding outside of a MMO as well? Argh).

Could it be fun? Heck, sure it could, I ve had plenty of pretty entertaining matches even with 35~ FPS and even got a few good laffs out of it.

Does it resemble Sensible Soccer? Of course it does, just as much as the beloved XBLA remake, I guess.

Is it Sensible Soccer? Not quite, thus as die-hard haijinish oldschool fan it isn t worth my time (hence my scarce interest toward int l online competitions on .de).

Dunno about ya ll but I ll stick to italian adversaries (and even then if you re living far off to the south, kindly gtfo), GOTM-like competitions (my true passion!) and offline events til we get a prettier middleware or better internet infrastructures. ;)

Special rules would definately help, though, I have to agree with Waenae here (I just couldn t suggest anything off the top of my head, this is a pretty complicated affair).





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12 years 5 months ago #62092 by Kanu
Finally... I really would like to know what kind of rule you are looking for.
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12 years 5 months ago #62095 by Retrieving
I have no clue actually, I was just giving my opinion on the matter ┐( ~`;)┌

...or were you talking to Waenae (likely)?
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12 years 5 months ago #62098 by Kanu
I m just talking to whom proposes special rules ...

Are they so special that cannot be clearly mentioned?
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12 years 5 months ago #62100 by Wänä81
Bomb asked for a rule, not me ;)

I accept every rule the admins, or the community or whoever sets for the p2p-part.

For myself it would be fine when the rule enclose the maximum delay we have to play p2p. ( In my case is that 80ms and 4 frames, what is the last playable delay )

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12 years 5 months ago #62112 by daimaou

difficult... in your case, daimaou, I thought there are servers all over europe (france or spain, for example). If that would be the case, it would be possible to meet you somewhere in the middle (and both players would have a ping of 60 or 70 ms)... :P

Try any french server and you ll see it s impossible to get 50FPS there, they just don t work with swos. There used to get a good one sometime ago (even before p2p appeared), I used it a lot of times to play vs Schulle and we both had good pings there. But it went down and never got back.

As i said, 80ms and 4 frames are the last playable delay for me. I think we must live with such big delays...now ;) But hey, no one can force me to play p2p with 5 frames and 100ms! If there will be a rule one day, i must accept that. otherwise the better option for me is to play 2 matches on server.

Waenae, on p2p 80ms is 3 skips and 100ms is 4skips :)
Or are you talking about server pings?
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