Re: Do we need special p2p-rules?

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12 years 6 months ago #62831 by [H]Giggs
Playaveli, I would say a 9-1 cant be explained for a non used to delay. Im not counting but we playing edjer for almost 1 year in ASL? Enough time to know Edjers play style and delay playing..

I would go more for a bad day.... :) and a good day for Edjer ofc :)

Bomb: Still for me a good player plays with any ping. Evidence of this, is that you cant win ASL1 if ur only used to play with offline ping.

About the poll is a good idea for this topic but I ll vote NO for 2 friendlys before the game. Sometimes we have time, other times we dont have, and forcing a player to play 3 or 4 games in a row isnt the best option.
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12 years 6 months ago #62837 by lemonheadiv

Of course delay is an advantage to people who are used to it. And it s true, you CAN get used to it.


The point is nobody is used to it, as me and others here tried to explain.
You could get used to a certain delay by connecting to the same server every time, which is not the case now since the majority of us play mostly in p2p mode, therefore facing variable conditions. That wasn t the case in the servers era either, at least not in my experience since I played with different delays depending on who I was facing ( e.g. 40ms on italian servers, 70-85ms on the rest ).
It seems that some of you didn t read our explanations. I think that from the telling of our experiences you can see that the idea, mentioned in the first post, of going back to servers was not realistic, nor would it grant more equality.
If I got it right the problem here is that some people who had an advantage are not happy with the fact than now they have to play with pings that are different from 15ms. That s what the rest of us that don t live in Central Europe are doing now, and some of us always did.

This is just my opinion as I refuse to accept the handling of delay as an actual skill.
And I refuse to change my playing style or even tactic just to adapt to 4 frameskips to win vs. Ejder or any other high-ping player. I rather prefer to loose over and over again.


Playing constantly with high delays ( a condition that, as we found out, nobody is experiencing now ) is never easy, you have to make up for the lack of responsiveness with a good timing ( that s the skill I was referring to ).
And if you think the key is getting used to a high delay, why people like Daimaou, always pinging at 90ms on arena for example, dropped servers in favour of p2p? In my opinion it s because playing with 90ms sucks, no matter how much you re used to it.

I ll say it again, I don t think we need rules for this.
Our common sense can tell us if we want to play a friendly before the official match or if we don t care that much about it after all. No need to put that condition in the rules imo.
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12 years 6 months ago #62877 by [H]Giggs
100% agree with Lemon
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12 years 6 months ago #62918 by Playaveli
What I wanted to say is:
- In the matches against Ejder I take 0 points (2 losses) for granted by default. Anything more than that is a bonus for me.

And since it s only 2 matches of 22 I really don t care. If another guy can handle the delay or get better results vs. Ejder, hats off to them.
I didn t want to argue in this topic or change anyone s mind.
Good luck with this discussion. Feel free to open polls or whatever you want to do.
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12 years 6 months ago #62929 by Bomb


I ll say it again, I don t think we need rules for this.
Our common sense can tell us if we want to play a friendly before the official match or if we don t care that much about it after all. No need to put that condition in the rules imo.


I agree. the discussion made clear that we don t need them. so it was at least no discussion for nothing.

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12 years 6 months ago #63049 by EJDER-Z

What I wanted to say is:
- In the matches against Ejder I take 0 points (2 losses) for granted by default. Anything more than that is a bonus for me.


Not quite accurate, you lost twice in only 2 seasons out of 9, and you beat me at least once in 6 of those seasons, it appears to be more occasional than just a bonus ;)

Games played when I was in USA:

PLAYAVELI 0 - 3 EJDER-Z LVI (Super) 16.03.2009
EJDER-Z 9 - 1 PLAYAVELI LVI (Super) 16.03.2009
EJDER-Z 7 - 4 PLAYAVELI LV (Super) 12.02.2009
PLAYAVELI 3 - 2 EJDER-Z LV (Super) 12.02.2009
EJDER-Z 4 - 0 PLAYAVELI LIV (Super) 26.01.2009
PLAYAVELI 1 - 3 EJDER-Z LIV (Super) 26.01.2009
EJDER-Z 3 - 3 PLAYAVELI LIII (Super) 17.12.2008
PLAYAVELI 3 - 2 EJDER-Z LIII (Super) 17.12.2008
PLAYAVELI 7 - 3 EJDER-Z L 2008 (Super) 28.11.2008
EJDER-Z 4 - 4 PLAYAVELI L 2008 (Super) 28.11.2008
PLAYAVELI 6 - 2 EJDER-Z IL 2008 (Super) 15.10.2008
EJDER-Z 6 - 1 PLAYAVELI IL 2008 (Super) 15.10.2008
EJDER-Z 3 - 2 PLAYAVELI XLVIII 2008 (Super) 16.09.2008
PLAYAVELI 2 - 2 EJDER-Z XLVIII 2008 (Super) 16.09.2008

Games played when I was in Turkiye:

EJDER-Z 3 - 2 PLAYAVELI XLVII 2008 (Super) 02.08.2008
PLAYAVELI 5 - 1 EJDER-Z XLVII 2008 (Super) 02.08.2008
PLAYAVELI 2 - 1 EJDER-Z XLVI 2008 (Super) 31.07.2008
EJDER-Z 4 - 1 PLAYAVELI XLVI 2008 (Super) 31.07.2008

However, I have the same feeling when playing Ali for a few seasons, like I lost 6 for granted by default;)
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12 years 6 months ago #63091 by ALI
Yep Playaveli has brainwashed himself totally that he believes its the fault of the ping :D
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12 years 6 months ago #63407 by stellozza




Well, if we play online ( and this topic is about that ) then it s normal to have lags and delay. Many of us never had the chance to experience that offline feeling that a 15ms ping on a server can give.
And, do you think it s easy to play for someone that has a 4 frames delay? Yes, he can get used to it but it will never be like playing offline nor like doing so wih 30ms of ping.
But then again since in online play there are lags, you have to deal with them...and that s a skill too.





I strongly disagree with that last statement: firstable, keep in mind that the game was designed to be played in lag-free conditions, thus the fact you ve never had first-hand experiences is completely irrelevant to the points in question. Once you start factoring in stuff that are clearly beyond the scope of the original concept the gameplay revoleves around you ve got to think about rules and restrictions to put in place in order to balance things out as well, otherwise you d end up giving up too much of the original game just to play online, making the whole ordeal rather pointless and partially falsifying the competition.

In second instance I likewise strongly believe that anything above 1~2 frameskip (let s say somewhere in between) and you re either playing Sensible World of Guessing or Sensible Moon of Soccer. Thanks but no thanks, the whole game-session simply becomes way too much depending on luck and randomness, nearly kicking out of the picture the skill-factor and effectively turning one of the most meritocratic multiplayer gaming experiences ever conceived into a scrub-oriented and mnemonic-driven cheapness-fest.

Tell you what...I think there s one big misunderstanding that should be pointed out before advancing with the discussion: the concept of smoothness itself has been mistakenly stretched quite a bit throughout the thread: lit up your Amiga and play a few matches on it (avoid LCD monitors or HDTV as well while you re at it, they generally bring forth their fair share of inherent delay as well...as a matter of fact I ve seen people carry their own 10 yrs. old CRT monitors to Street Fighter III ran-bats - btw you could easily test your TV with Rockband input delay detecting feature) then get back to your PC and play with an opponent who resides within your country borders (unless you live in China, Australia or something of the likes eh), you ll feel like someone has loaded your players with 10Kg. of extra pixels each.

Stop fooling yourselves, even with just 2~3 frameskips the game is FAR from being silk-smooth and if you re used to play offline a lot (much like the vast majority of oldschool players such as myself and Waenae) the lag/input delay ends up fuc.king up your timing badly to the point that 35 minutes into the game you just stand there helplessly, blabbing about how frustrating the whole experience has been instead of playing (or at least that s what happens to me haha). Sure you might suck it up for the sake of playing your favourite game of all time however that doesn t mean it ain t bull$hit. It s NOT right, no matter how you sweeten it.

Moreover, as others have mentioned above, once you ve overcome the 80~ ms threshold it just stops being even remotely worthwhile.

Don t get me wrong, I m not trying to belittle anyone or dwindle away anyone s accomplishments however it is definately not the game we ve always known, it s a somewhat edulcorated version (you may or may not dislike) with his own peculiar gameplay which on my book is just as different as say...the PC or mobile phone versions can be...but...that s not even the point, unfortunately.

The real issue here is that adding insult to injury the online played over long distances doesn t hold any friggin consistency either: depending on your opponent/online mode/connection/f***ton more variables the feel is pretty much ever-changing so whoever is quicker to adapt to the new circumstances (rather than who s more skilled) or whose playing-style fits better the aforementioned conditions prevails. And that s it. That s what people are complaining about. That s what ultimately throws people off and doesn t allow equity.

So yeah, Is it fair? I don t think so, not entirely at least: due to the moltitude of variables previously mentioned oftentimes the outcome of a match is literally up for anyone s guess even when skill-wise the gap between the players is nothing short of manifest (I could care less if both players are suffering the same lag and inputting delay, one of them will always be at an advantage simply because he might ve played more matches in a similar environment. It turns into a matter of experience, not skill, are you seriously telling me I ve got to start grinding outside of a MMO as well? Argh).

Could it be fun? Heck, sure it could, I ve had plenty of pretty entertaining matches even with 35~ FPS and even got a few good laffs out of it.

Does it resemble Sensible Soccer? Of course it does, just as much as the beloved XBLA remake, I guess.

Is it Sensible Soccer? Not quite, thus as die-hard haijinish oldschool fan it isn t worth my time (hence my scarce interest toward int l online competitions on .de).

Dunno about ya ll but I ll stick to italian adversaries (and even then if you re living far off to the south, kindly gtfo), GOTM-like competitions (my true passion!) and offline events til we get a prettier middleware or better internet infrastructures. ;)

Special rules would definately help, though, I have to agree with Waenae here (I just couldn t suggest anything off the top of my head, this is a pretty complicated affair).


THIS.
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12 years 6 months ago #63409 by Coolio_Jack
90% of online games are played with 2 or 3 frames delay, we shouldnt make such a big mess for those 10%. Until the better solutions for playing online arrives, we should just enjoy these 90% of games, and be mature about the other 10%.
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12 years 6 months ago #63439 by Retrieving



(...)

THIS.


tl;dr:

make of it what you will but the more distance you put between yourself and the opponent, the more likely the gameplay will diverge from the way it was originally meant to be experienced.

That being said, I sorta agree with Coolio here.
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